Curse

Shaz · Apr 18, 2008, 09:15 AM // 09:15

FoW NM no consumables builds

[SY Para;OQGjUymIqSAhxgpbXFBZ4b5iubA]
[Order Derv;OgSjQoqLrOe3Jhh4+GeBvlX8LA]
[Hex Control Rit;OAOj4shmIPYMvpmul4So+W/kLA]
[Heal Monk;OwAS0YITaEbE3NQgtETfXEdR]
[Mot Para;OQCjUqnK6OBZ8NDuDrh3wub5NA]
[Command Para;OQCjUumI6OBZ8ND+CbhD/ub5NA]
[Command Para 2;OQCjUumI6OBZ8ND2CPirwub5NA]

Didn't give much thought to the paragons, but as you can see I love deep wound, deep wounds make thing go boom quick

. I didn't take a stunning strike because thing should die quickly enough that dazed will be useless. Can also take out Anthem of Weariness if you want, it was just filler. Other spear attack can be use, but I usually like only 3 adrenaline skills on my paras if I can help it. Pretty much any decent build will work, my builds are a bit more aggressive, you can be safer if you want with more motivation chant.

The rit used to be OoS with bloodsong, but bloodsong sometime draw unnecessary aggro from patrol because it lasted so long and slow down the run. So this new rit was born, not sure who came up with it though, I think it was Dr Evove, and it is working quite well.

That epic hero monk build was created by Racthoh, I think. I know hybrid monk are better, but if you aren't bad at SY, prot is unnecessary for this team build in FoW. Because if you're doing it right, the only thing that should kill you are SS and Empathy, mostly SS though.

Make sure you disable the monk and rit signet when you get in the Forest for the Wailing Lord because of Primal Echoes. That won't do anything to your party, because there isn't that much hexes in there for you to need that and should be easy enough that your monk won't need that heal. Just leave Castigation Signet though, bit more damage and won't hurt on energy.

The hex control might be a bit over kill in NM, just maybe, because that's what was use in HM before. But extra hex removal is always nice especially in FoW, and with 4 paras and lots of SS throwing around. You can change it to your liking after using it in NM.

Quote:

Hexes is irrelevant.

I don't see how hexes are irrelevant when you argue about Nature's Renewal and enchanments on the order, NR affect hexes also.

Quote:

Only Melonni is a bit stupid and I had to cast orders for her...

You guys need new heroes then

. Never had problem with order on any of the necros or dervs hero for me.

Abedeus · Apr 18, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Shaz - 7 hex removals? Oh COME ON. With so god damn much healing and damage reduction from paragons, plus a whole lot of damage (btw - you don't have dazed, which will make fighting 2 or 3 shadow monks a real pain) you don't need to worry about hexes. Heck, I had only 1 hex removal in my team...

Oh, and you don't need to waste a skill slot for For Great Justice! if your derv has an adrenaline-buffing enchantment. Maybe something like Spear of Lightning?

distilledwill · Apr 18, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I agree with Abedeus, that is a ridiculously large amount of hex removal. Id remove hexbreaker aria and replace it with something more useful like ["Stand Your Ground!"] or even ["Fall Back!"] - to increase your travelling speed.

Also, you may love Deep Wound, but no team needs that many - replace one Cruel Spear with a [Stunning Strike] para and maybe put Signet Of Removal or [Empathic Removal] on the other (opening up the elite space on your ritualist). I would replace one or two of your vicious attacks with [Barbed Spear], [Blazing Spear] or [Spear Of Redemption]. Think about it, whats the point in having a deep wound attack skill if your target already has deep wound? [Wild Throw] might be a good idea also seeing as ALL of your damage is physical based and it would help against enemies with blocking stances and the spiders with Melandrus Resilience.

Your monk is ok, although it could do with some energy management. [Glyph Of Lesser Energy] is a good one (especially important seeing as your elite is WoH, which is very spammy) Id put it in place of a hex removal.

With your hex removal loaded off onto the monk/para you're free to take the rit as a pure rit healer, for conditions use [Mend Body And Soul] and [Weapon Of Remedy] if you want. Ancestors' and Splinter are always good to keep on the bar. You could take [Life] or [Recovery] and you can keep remove hex if you really want. [Weapon Of Fury] is an awesome elite to use with Paras. The reason I suggest is that the rit is a bit too focused on something very specific and your team would benefit more if they could fill a few more roles (backup healer, adrenaline/energy battery AND condition/hex removal and damage dealer).

Carboplatin · Apr 18, 2008, 01:41 PM // 13:41

[SY paragon;OQGjUymIqSPYBZ7YXFpbAhieubA]
[P hero 1;OQWkIMlrJiukv4DGDGyHXj7m82OG]
[p hero 2;OQWkIMlrJiukv4DGDGyHXj7m82OG]
[D hero 3;OgSjQwqJbOe3Jhh4+GeBvlX8LA]
[W hero 4;OQMSEZJTTFQFSFXFKFFFSixE]
[N hero 5;OANCY8zxMX5EbZFLYAlJ]
[Mo hero 6;OwAS0YITSEaEZE+DRgtETfxE]

2 hours 10 min. no cons. NM.

I probably don't need that many rezzes. i find the interrups help alot. I also don't see the point of giving the P or W heros one too many attack skills, they won't use them anyway. don't give them to many choices, the AI is stupid and can't decide.

I pack alot of interrupts. best damage mitgation, just don't let them cast. overaggroing with the hydras or the N or Mo being constant KD'ed by the abyssals are the only threats to the party. Havn't gotten a chance to test some of builds posted yet

lets get some times up for these builds

Abedeus · Apr 18, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I don't understand one thing - why Mend Condition, why RoF, why Resurrect, why Penetrating Chop... Get Splinter Weapon on warrior, he will cast it at least as good as a n/rt. Or better, get rid of warrior and get n/rt ;o Also, monk/nothing is worse than n/mo. Plus, Orison of Healing < Signet of Rejuvenation.

Racthoh · Apr 18, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

There is absolutely no need for condition removal in FoW. If you must have it then it better be in the form of Signet of Removal, Blessed Light, or Divert Hexes.

Three conditions matter in PvE; Blind, Dazed, and to a lesser extent Weakness. Degen conditions do not matter because this isn't PvP where fights are lasting several solid minutes without a break. That damage is not going to add up, and you can easily spec against it with party heals (which work for other situations as well). Dazed is non-existant in FoW unless your casters are dumb enough to stand next to the Dragon Liches. Blind is found against the Rock Borers, but they have Lightning Reflexes anyway. Going from a 90% miss rate to 75% isn't worth a skill slot. Dust Traps should never go off from the Impalers; they always start hidden so no pre-casting. The berserkers can hit you with weakness, only if you let them live long and you don't have party-blocks for some reason.

My logic is if a melee is dumb enough to run into the traps they deserve to be blind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

I agree with Abedeus, that is a ridiculously large amount of hex removal. Id remove hexbreaker aria and replace it with something more useful like ["Stand Your Ground!"] or even ["Fall Back!"] - to increase your travelling speed.

Save Yourselves! makes SYG useless. SYG is bad anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

Also, you may love Deep Wound, but no team needs that many - replace one Cruel Spear with a [Stunning Strike] para and maybe put Signet Of Removal or [Empathic Removal] on the other (opening up the elite space on your ritualist). I would replace one or two of your vicious attacks with [Barbed Spear], [Blazing Spear] or [Spear Of Redemption]. Think about it, whats the point in having a deep wound attack skill if your target already has deep wound? [Wild Throw] might be a good idea also seeing as ALL of your damage is physical based and it would help against enemies with blocking stances and the spiders with Melandrus Resilience.

By the time Stunning Strike fills the monks are dead and that's in Hard Mode. Barbed Spear is weak in PvE, Blazing is good but he said he doesn't like to have too many adrenaline skills on the bar, and Redemption doesn't do much as there is a lack of conditions in FoW. There is one enemy in FoW with an evasion stance and they can be avoided entirely (except for 6 of them).

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

Your monk is ok, although it could do with some energy management. [Glyph Of Lesser Energy] is a good one (especially important seeing as your elite is WoH, which is very spammy) Id put it in place of a hex removal.

Every skill is 5 energy, Glyph Lesser is a waste. Removing a Spiteful Spirit is energy management. When there are no hexes and everyone has +100 AL all that is needed are pure heals; heroes are good at that too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

With your hex removal loaded off onto the monk/para you're free to take the rit as a pure rit healer, for conditions use [Mend Body And Soul] and [Weapon Of Remedy] if you want. Ancestors' and Splinter are always good to keep on the bar. You could take [Life] or [Recovery] and you can keep remove hex if you really want. [Weapon Of Fury] is an awesome elite to use with Paras.

Moving hex removal off onto physicals means stuff isn't dying as quickly. It gives the rit something to do while Splinter Weapon is recharging. Smite Condition is all the condition removal needed, mainly because it makes stuff die too. While there are no conditions that matter in FoW that doesn't mean we can't use the ones that don't matter to deal some damage. Again it gives the rit something to do while Splinter Weapon is recharging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

The reason I suggest is that the rit is a bit too focused on something very specific and your team would benefit more if they could fill a few more roles (backup healer, adrenaline/energy battery AND condition/hex removal and damage dealer).

There is a monk with 6 heals, an D/N order bot, TNTF and SY. There is more than enough healing, the paragons are fine for energy, Signet of Removal gives hex and condition removal, and Splinter Weapon is one of the strongest skills in the game. The rit meshes quite well with the rest of the build.

Shaz · Apr 18, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Shaz - 7 hex removals? Oh COME ON. With so god damn much healing and damage reduction from paragons, plus a whole lot of damage (btw - you don't have dazed, which will make fighting 2 or 3 shadow monks a real pain) you don't need to worry about hexes. Heck, I had only 1 hex removal in my team...

Oh, and you don't need to waste a skill slot for For Great Justice! if your derv has an adrenaline-buffing enchantment. Maybe something like Spear of Lightning?

Remember I did said that those build are designed for HM with 5 physicals to keep clean in mind. The paragon doesn't heal, except for chorus of restoration and my TNTF. Most of the party healing are there to reduce the pressure for the 1 monk that I use, there are only 3 straight heal in the whole build. And I use 4 physicals with one healer, while in your build you have 2 healers and only 2 physicals. I did said that the only hexes that should kill you are SS and Empathy, SY! does not reduce damage from those, TNTF reduce some. But take of some off if it too much and pick something else.

Why don't you tell me to take out Focused Anger also if you're going to suggest taking out FGJ, read the skills again. Spear of Lighting was not use on any of the Para because it will cause lightning damage and will not trigger order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

I agree with Abedeus, that is a ridiculously large amount of hex removal. Id remove hexbreaker aria and replace it with something more useful like ["Stand Your Ground!"] or even ["Fall Back!"] - to increase your travelling speed.

Also, you may love Deep Wound, but no team needs that many - replace one Cruel Spear with a [Stunning Strike] para and maybe put Signet Of Removal or [Empathic Removal] on the other (opening up the elite space on your ritualist). I would replace one or two of your vicious attacks with [Barbed Spear], [Blazing Spear] or [Spear Of Redemption]. Think about it, whats the point in having a deep wound attack skill if your target already has deep wound? [Wild Throw] might be a good idea also seeing as ALL of your damage is physical based and it would help against enemies with blocking stances and the spiders with Melandrus Resilience.

Your monk is ok, although it could do with some energy management. [Glyph Of Lesser Energy] is a good one (especially important seeing as your elite is WoH, which is very spammy) Id put it in place of a hex removal.

With your hex removal loaded off onto the monk/para you're free to take the rit as a pure rit healer, for conditions use [Mend Body And Soul] and [Weapon Of Remedy] if you want. Ancestors' and Splinter are always good to keep on the bar. You could take [Life] or [Recovery] and you can keep remove hex if you really want. [Weapon Of Fury] is an awesome elite to use with Paras. The reason I suggest is that the rit is a bit too focused on something very specific and your team would benefit more if they could fill a few more roles (backup healer, adrenaline/energy battery AND condition/hex removal and damage dealer).

hexbreaker aria is there so the caster would focus their hex removal more on the physicals, but I guess you can take it out for Fall Back to speed it up since there is no cons use. Stand Your Ground will be useless with SY.

As I said before, dazed is not needed as they should die really quickly. I pick those attack not because they do deep wound, that's just a bonus, but because they do the most damage for what I'm trying to do. With the way the AI play, they will always have an attack ready to be use at all time and doesn't cut into cruel or the support chant/shout adrenaline pool. Don't need wild throw just for the worm, I'll just change target, and change back to finish it off when the stance wear off. You shouldn't worry about MR, just like you shouldn't worry about the monks healing breeze.

You're right, that deep wound on deep wound won't do anything. Like say, dismember and then dismember again, but these skills does +damage and that's why I picked it.

Monk energy is fine. Don't really need anymore heal to change the rit into restoration. Look at the team build as a whole, don't look at individual build.

Richardt · Apr 18, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Langdon, you might want to replace Spear of Lightening with another spear attack. Swift Javelin with synergize well with the Orders, but it's recharge isn't as good. The reason is that SoL does lightening damage, which won't trigger OoP.

For you warrior hero, I've had luck using only Triple Chop, Cyclone Axe and Executioners Strike. They will run into a bit of energy problems in a protracted fight however. They'll also use Ignore Pain fairly intellegently (i.e. when their health gets down-then after the battle the healers can get them back up).

Shield of Regeneration is an interesting choice-however I don't believe it stacks with SY! so the +40 armor would only be a benefit to you. For everyone else it's just an Elite version of Healing Breeze.

Antithesis · Apr 19, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

I don't see how hexes are irrelevant when you argue about Nature's Renewal and enchanments on the order, NR affect hexes also.

I get your point but i'm not about to swap out 5 or so useful hexes because of a total of 3 or 4 spirits in FoW. Enchantment stripping is a far greater problem, and there's no reason the SS couldn't be swapped for a N/Rt Orders if you're desperate to include it...that still makes 4 Paragons, 3 N/Rt's.

That Rt/Mo is a dirty, dirty bar. The Monk is no better, why do you need 6 heals on the bar?!? I'm sure they work but are they optimal? Mine aren't either so i can't really criticise.

Both the Rt/Mo and the Mo are very passive (other than the stock standard AR/SW) and offer less than 2 x N/Rt's. Think outside the box.

Why 3 x same elite?!? How many times can you apply deep wound...6 skills for it? I get that Cruel and Vicious are primarily taken for the damage but how about Epidemic? A Para can easily handle it and there's no reason a Para can't handle hex removal.

Lyric of Zeal + Rejuvenation Signet / Castigation Signet is smart, i like that.

Shaz · Apr 19, 2008, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

That Rt/Mo is a dirty, dirty bar. The Monk is no better, why do you need 6 heals on the bar?!?
Both are very passive (other than the stock standard AR/SW) and offer less than 2 x N/Rt's. Think outside the box.

Why 4 x same elite?!? How about Epidemic? A Para can easily handle it.

Dirty as in a bad bar? to each their own I guess. Only 3 heal really, cure hex is more for hex removal instead of heal, the heal is just secondary. You can swap that out for smite hex and the build will still work, but why would you. The other two party heal are there to take pressure off the monk a bit cause it's the only monk.

Epidemic is not necessary. Thing will get deep wound like right away anyway and die quite fast. I can use other elite if I want to be safe, but I like to kill thing quick that's why I chose those.

Carboplatin · Apr 19, 2008, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I don't understand one thing - why Mend Condition, why RoF, why Resurrect, why Penetrating Chop... Get Splinter Weapon on warrior, he will cast it at least as good as a n/rt. Or better, get rid of warrior and get n/rt ;o Also, monk/nothing is worse than n/mo. Plus, Orison of Healing < Signet of Rejuvenation.

the answer to those questions are in my orignal post.

My second account is Prophesie + Gwen only, so i don't get access to many of the skills. I only have 1 necro, 1 monk, 1 warrior that have decent skills. I don't have many skills unlocked on that account, it was a hand me down from a friend, so can't complaine.

so no rit skills, no paragons, nothing. Out of the available skills from prophesies, i just threw something together. Tho next time i will take out the hex removals and try to throw something in there. not sure what yet. I could bother my guildies to lend me their heros, but i like being autonomous.

.defekt · Apr 19, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

[Heal Monk;OwAS0YITaEbE3NQgtETfXEdR]

That epic hero monk build was created by Racthoh, I think. I know hybrid monk are better, but if you aren't bad at SY, prot is unnecessary for this team build in FoW. Because if you're doing it right, the only thing that should kill you are SS and Empathy, mostly SS though.

That bar isn't epic. It's bad. You don't need 3 hex removals on one character. You don't need 7 hex removals in the entire build. You don't need to waste the elite on the rit with sig removal. And its for normal mode. You should only need like, 2-3 removals in the whole build. And personally I'd bring a Healers Boon monk over the WoH with a one monk backline.

I don't really know why you're trying so hard to make a build that beats NM FoW. Anything beats NM FoW.

Carboplatin · Apr 19, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Dirty as in a bad bar? to each their own I guess. Only 3 heal really, cure hex is more for hex removal instead of heal, the heal is just secondary. You can swap that out for smite hex and the build will still work, but why would you. The other two party heal are there to take pressure off the monk a bit cause it's the only monk.

Epidemic is not necessary. Thing will get deep wound like right away anyway and die quite fast. I can use other elite if I want to be safe, but I like to kill thing quick that's why I chose those.

I actually find that rit bar with [signet of removal] interesting. i might give that one a go and drop the necro monk i've been using. However, hows the AI on this? can they use this skill effectively? i am always weary of conditional skills on a hero, especially an elite skills.

i didn't know spear of lightning didn't trigger orders, so i might be swaping that out for something else. havn't decided what yet tho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

I don't really know why you're trying so hard to make a build that beats NM FoW. Anything beats NM FoW.

i think we established that we can all beat FoW in HM or NM, this is not what i am after. i can easily use my ursan and pug a 50min run anydays. As i've stated before, i am just looking for ways to kill faster with a bunch of heros with out using ursan or cons. i enjoy coming up with builds that are fun and balanced, which was why i started to play GW in the first place. spamming 1-2-3-4 with 5 stranger pugs doesn't appeal to me.

edit - by saying coming up with, i mean borrowing others peoples idea, adding my own, get some critques, wash and repeat, etc.

Antithesis · Apr 19, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Epidemic is not necessary. Thing will get deep wound like right away anyway and die quite fast. I can use other elite if I want to be safe, but I like to kill thing quick that's why I chose those.

Given most targets are going to be called, i can see more use in Epidemic than 3 x Cruel Spear if the target is dropping quickly. But i see why you're using the Para builds, the damage bonus of Vicious and Cruel are good and there are only two SM elites.

Maybe i just like more complex builds, i'm sure it works but it looks dull to play. Personally i'd probably go with 1 x Anthem of Fury, 1 x Cruel Spear, 1 x Stunning Strike just to make things more interesting. That said, would it be quicker than 3 x Cruel Spear?....i doubt it.

DarkSpirit · Apr 19, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

[Hex Control Rit;OAOj4shmIPYMvpmul4So+W/kLA]

That is an interesting elite for an orders team. You can certainly replace the remove hex with a [Signet of Mystic Wrath] or something more useful.

Antithesis · Apr 19, 2008, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That is an interesting elite for an orders team. You can certainly replace the remove hex with a [Signet of Mystic Wrath] or something more useful.

Signet of Removal might sit snugly onto a Mesmer bar too. The rest of the bar's ugly but effective.

Shaz · Apr 19, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

That bar isn't epic. It's bad. You don't need 3 hex removals on one character. You don't need 7 hex removals in the entire build. You don't need to waste the elite on the rit with sig removal. And its for normal mode. You should only need like, 2-3 removals in the whole build. And personally I'd bring a Healers Boon monk over the WoH with a one monk backline.

I don't really know why you're trying so hard to make a build that beats NM FoW. Anything beats NM FoW.

Did you even read? I did says it was designed for FoW HM, since it can cut through HM so well, it should do great in NM. I didn't feel like testing and changing the build for NM, as I don't do NM FoW anymore. If you want to optimize it even more for NM, feel free to do so.

What other elite could the rit use that will be more useful?

Lol 2-3 hex removal with 5 physicals to keep clean? Which is what I usually run. Keep in mind that hero will remove any hex from anyone, so they might waste a remove for a useless hex or remove SS from a caster. Your physicals will then either kill themselves with SS and Empathy or stop attacking. Heroes do not stop attacking unless you order it to, even then you would only have control of 3 heroes, 2 of which should be the monk and rit. The SY cannot stop attacking because then SY will fall, even if you could stop, that mean you're not doing any damage. Well, maybe if you do careful pulling of each group and stuff. I don't do that, as I don't need to and the run is a lot quicker that way.

Well I wouldn't say anything beats NM FoW, but FoW is easy. I post that build for those who wanted to beat FoW faster, faster is the keyword here.

At the moment, this build seem perfect to me. Anymore healing then it would be overkill, damage output is excellence, can't really add anymore damage unless you take out some useful utility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That is an interesting elite for an orders team. You can certainly replace the remove hex with a [Signet of Mystic Wrath] or something more useful.

Best case scenario, the Rit should only have 2 enchantments at the most, making it not worth it, only around ~60 damage at 11 smite every 20 sec. Meh, I'd rather have the utility of remove hex.

Until you go there with a group full of physicals, you won't understand how important hex control is, especially in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Maybe i just like more complex builds, i'm sure it works but it looks dull to play. Personally i'd probably go with 1 x Anthem of Fury, 1 x Cruel Spear, 1 x Stunning Strike just to make things more interesting. That said, would it be quicker than 3 x Cruel Spear?....i doubt it.

Go for it. As for me I like to use the most effective builds, if I find something to improve this build, as in making the run faster, I will change it. Nothing at the moment yet though.

Sethellington · Apr 19, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

i'm guessing that your friend only has prophecies. if you get another friend to help you could get another para or 2, and you really need an SS nec. 4 or 5 paras with a physical aid such as kahmu will rip through FoW and shave a good 20 mins off your run if you're doing it right.

also, you don't need a con SET, but an essence would really help you out i'd think.

Antithesis · Apr 19, 2008, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Until you go there with a group full of physicals, you won't understand how important hex control is, especially in HM.

Go for it. As for me I like to use the most effective builds, if I find something to improve this build, as in making the run faster, I will change it. Nothing at the moment yet though.

Fair call. It works and works well for the intended purpose - a fast FoW run in HM. I still think they're ugly bars, but the simplest solutions are often the best.

Thanks for posting the build, it's given us something to think about.

DarkSpirit · Apr 19, 2008, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Best case scenario, the Rit should only have 2 enchantments at the most, making it not worth it, only around ~60 damage at 11 smite every 20 sec. Meh, I'd rather have the utility of remove hex.

At 54 damage, it would be more effective than your castigation signet.

Anyway, even [bane signet] would more useful than remove hex when you already have 6 other hex removals, if you want a more unconditional source of damage.

7 hex removal skills for even 5 physicals (2 of which are human players) seems alittle over-zealous to me even for HM. In the worst case, when a human player is hexed with SS or Empathy, and it is not removed immediately, just stop attacking for a second and manually command the heroes to remove the hex for you since your hex removal skills have a fast recharge. You have 1 primary healer and 1 secondary healer (your derv).

Just my 2 cents.